What they don't tell you is that all elected officials in this state are in OPERS, one of the five state pension funds. They wrote Senate Bill 5 in such a manner that they are exempt from its provisions. They are not required to pay 15% for their health care and neither are they required to contribute at least 10% into OPERS. They also fail to remind people of the logjam in common please courts before there was binding arbitration. Once binding arbitration is removed, unions will be able to go back to the common please courts when there are unfair labor practices or a dispute on a contract issue. One of the main reasons for binding arbitration was to free up the courts.

Sorry, that's disingenuous. This is objectively as controversial as a ballot measure gets, and saying so does not disallow people from making up their own minds about it. Patch was right on in calling it that.

Votig NO on Issue 2 will help keep or firefighters, policemen and teaches working. If the Unions are rendered ineffective, ALL wages and benefits for people will be reduced or disappear. We will be at the mercy of the CEO's who can fire people for no reason. Unions helped all people raise their standard of living over the years, as most companies base their wages on Union Scale. Vote to SAVE your families and don't believe the Republican LIES. Gov. Kasich IMMEDIATELY raised the salaries of ALL his employees when he took over Ohio, far higher than when Strickland was Governor. So much for being fiscally conservative. He needs to apply those rules to himself and his people before he can sell those lies to the public.

That is so funny, the article you chose was written by representatives of the 1%. Professional middle class American assassins LOLOLOLOLOL.................It would have been impossible for anyone to ever find a more bias piece of lies. You're not going to show your mother this, I hope. She'll fan your backside for trying to pass this nest of lies as truthful. I bet she's enormously ashamed of you.

Here's the problem, the 1% you worship havnt been paying their employees enough. Public sector is barely middle class. The conservative underwriters of your references have an interest in keeping EVERYONE's salary down to pay themselves massive bonuses. They attack unions (meaning, middle class American taxpayers) because they are trying to do away with the middle class. Pensions are a part of compensation for working for lower salaries than they would in the private sector. Imagine what the starting salary in one of those big businesses will give for a person with a master's degree to start and then compare it to the approx $46,000 a teacher makes after 15 years. Tell us, why do you hate middle class Americans?

Reality: look at Stow's school district. A first grade teacher retired a number of months ago. She was making over $76,000 per 184 work days and the pension liability for her is about $1.4 million. That's wonderful for her. I wish taxpayers had more to shell out for teachers like her, but the economy is what it is. Is this sustainable with some districts having so many teachers that there are only 17 students per class? Yes, there will be even more lose their jobs if this issue fails. Unsustainabilty.

Some of the very struggles happening in states such as Ohio are similar to what we are seeing take place in Greece with the public unions there revolting against the austerity measures. While there maybe things in SB5 that not everyone likes, if something isn't done to reign in spending (and it goes way beyond just the public unions and pensions) each state could end up doing even more drastic hard cuts later in order to survive financially and then we will see violence and that will certainly drive jobs and even tourist away. We don't want to end up like Greece who had a history of giving unions more and more until the workers could retire at 55. Now what they got used to is being taken away and there are revolts. Now, no one wants to travel there and their economy is suffering even more. Greece's problems started with the politicians just like here in Ohio.

mm3264:

So the New York Times piece about taxpayer burden to pensions is conservative propaganda?

When you have Democratic governors like Dan Malloy and Andrew Cuomo laying down a hard stance on unions, it’s a pretty clear sign that we’re dealing with a public sector crisis.

Pensions should be part of public compensation, but it’s pretty clear that we’re dealing a sub-prime pension problem. It’s no wonder we find ourselves with trillions of dollars of unfunded liabilities when the system is being completely exploited by workers (http://eng.am/oVovMT) and politicians (http://eng.am/qnAyz3) alike.

If you want to hurl personal insults with no facts to back up your claims, that’s fine. However, as more cities are forced to lay off public employees because of these unsustainable contracts, the social and physical infrastructure of our cities and states will only get worse.

Interest groups are taking over the public sector and corrupting the process by which fair compensation and collective bargaining work in harmony. We’re left with groups who choose to plunder their workforce (http://eng.am/pEXFBf) or throw good teachers out of the system (http://eng.am/n6Bc6d).

This language of 1% versus the rest brings more heat than light to the debate. Our real problems deserve better.

Yes this analysis is right wing propaganda produced by American Enterprise Institute and the Heritage Foundation. They made many dubious assumptions to slant their analysis. Here are some of them from Anthony Caldwell. I can't post them all.
http://anthonycaldwell.com/?p=411
■Treating Ohio retiree health benefits as guaranteed benefits, when they are discretionary benefits.
■Using a 4 percent interest rate to project the value of future pension assets, when the Ohio Public Employees Retirement System (OPERS) has achieved 8.99 percent rate of return over the last 30 years.
■Calculating future pension liabilities based upon wage increases as if they are fixed and guaranteed
■Arbitrarily reducing private-sector employer tax contributions for Social Security from 6.2 percent of payroll (up to $106,200) to 2 percent of payroll
■Arguing that public employee job security confers a premium worth 9.3 percent that should be added to the estimated cost of employee compensation, even though there is no guaranteed job security in the
■Making a number of important calculation obfuscations, including discount rate adjustment factor and normal cost of pensions that could not be replicated.
Other analysis show that publice employees make no more than private sector.
I would also like to know who the "private sector" firefighters and police one compares to when doing this sort of analysis.

Phil, if you havn't guessed it yet the Times has and always will hate the middle class American taxpayers that you refer to as unions. Every article you site, again, are right wing extremist articles. They always mention unfunded pensions, like they are going to cave in on society. Why don't they mention unfunded electric bills the state has? Do you know what unfunded means? Doubtful. All it means is that a bill hasn't been presented yet. It hasn't been budgeted yet. Have you funded your March 2013 electric bill yet? Are you in debt because of it? That's is what those that hate middle class Americans try to tell the simple-minded. These are part of compensation for the work they do. Who's fault is it that non union workers have been being screwed for the last thirty years? That's the timeline for the beginning of the massive difference between the 1% and the rest of us. That's right it's only been thitrty years. Do you get annoyed when Big Business makes contracts with the government and then the price triples for cost overruns? The middle class American taxpayers (unions) live with their contracts even when their pension money invested by the state earns the states billions. The middle class American taxpayers (unions) don't renegotiate. They say good luck to the state, because they are also taxpayers. Any pension that is in trouble is directly attributable to the state breaking their end of the contract, they are the ones who lied to the voters.

Phil, How is that unfunded mortgage you have? That unfunded cable bill?
Of course you're not worried about it. Do you have a child, how about that unfunded college education they will need, that's going to set you back about $100,000 and that unfunded weddind your daughter might want? That unfunded heat and cooling bill for 2013, what will you do? Maybe you could toss out one of your kids. Or maybe just not feed one. It's a scare campaign Phil bought to you by someone who wants a bigger cut of the pie, they don't need it but if they can screw you out of it they will just so they have more.

Ward, I see you conveniently left out that while spending has increased REVENUES have fallen. Gee what do you think Ward? Revenues havn't been this low in 60 years. Those were the days weren't they? How's that trickle down theory working out for America. Except when they trickle it's yellow not the green we were promised.

The teacher isn't at fault here Ward, it's the politics and the, now, open warfare against the American middle class taxpayer by the 1% the Republicans represent. Thanks to the Republicans the middle class can expect an increase in their taxes because the tax cut they received didn't do anything for the 1%, but the 1% will still get their Bush tax cuts while they trickle yellow on you.

mm3264, I’m not sure how various article reporting news events are “extremist," but you’re basically proving my point. If I can’t meet my payments in the future, I’ll have to cut back on other things to make ends meet.

Except if I can’t pay my cable bill, thousands of employees aren’t laid off. If I can’t pay my child’s college tuition, the taxpayers of Ohio aren’t responsible for paying for it instead. I can’t lobby the oil company to drive down my rates. If I stop paying my oil bill, my heat gets turned off. If states can’t fund pensions, will workers stop getting them?

If you can’t see the difference here, then I don’t know what to say. Certainly the rest of the state will understand, as the cost hits them directly in their pockets and in their neighborhoods.

Listen, no one denies there are interest groups on either side with a dog in this fight. But in a competitive global economy we have to be aware of the changing nature of the compensation system. If we don’t address the problem and continue to dole out payments we can’t keep, the country will most definitely suffer.

Phil, why are you in favor of hurting and targeting these American middle class taxpayers for for contracts that the state wants to default on? You say if you can't pay your bills you'll cut back. That's fine. The state is claiming they can't pay their bills so they are targeting one class of citizen while still giving tax cuts to those few that kick back to their reelection campaigns. Why don't you feed Mary but not Johnny, that's what you want the state to do. Why shouldn't the it be shared. You decided we should make enemies of a percentage of the taxpayers but not all of them.We'll make demagouges of those who took lower salaries in a trade off for security and we'll screw them out of the security. We'll call them terrorists those who join together. Did your IRA take a hit? Well then it looks like YOU made a poor life choice and your arguement is "WAAA, WAAA, WAAA, they made better life choices, I want what they have, but I don't want to make the sacrifices they did, and if I can't have it I want you to take theirs away, WAAA, WAAA, WAAA"
They made contracts and they must live with them just as the state must.

Phil is correct that pension payout will not be impacted significantly by SB5. Pension reforms are currently being addressed by the legislature in House Bill 69 and Senate Bill 3.

WE (the Police, Firefighters and teachers) tried to talk to him very early on. He refused. Then , during a slow news week (yet still full of his lies) he all of a sudden he wants to talk. He had a chance to talk in February. He and his 14% raise thugs refused.

The governor did not want to talk with the unions until it appeared as though they were going to be successful in getting Issue 2 on the ballot. When he realized that there was a possibility that the entire Senate Bill 5 could be tossed by the voters, he wanted to negotiate.

Are you serious, Ed? The state legislature WASN'T EVEN IN SESSION when Kasich and Batchelder staged that meeting! The way the Ohio House rammed it down the throats of the powerless Democratic minority (constituents be d*****!), without compromise, you really think that by union leaders showing up to that political sideshow (cameras set up with placecards, complete with large enough fonts so that cameras would catch them), that any sort of compromise could've been reached? In that 11th hour? With no prior signs of compromise? Without the legislature in session? With a ballot deadline looming?

"He tried." Your opinion would be funny if it wasn't so frightening.

What I think is funny, is that people are saying to vote yes on issue 2 and turn around and say vote against another school or fire levy. AMAZING ! ! ! !

Thank you!

You must not work in the education field. There is a great disparity between what some unions get and others depending on the powers that be. The education associations in this state are very powerful. That's why tenure is so amazing if you're a teacher or administrator. Stow, for example, has about 130 that make between $70,000 to $110,000 per average of 184 work days. Other districts are even more than that. We pay well and that's certainly a good thing, but when they cry there's still not enough it makes a voter scratch their head in wonderment expecially when many workers have taken pay cuts. This is one reason there's been such protests throughout the country and it's all over disparity between the haves and have nots, whether it the folks sitting under tarps in New York or other groups standing up to the constant rising taxes even though their own incomes have suffered. Obviously, this is unsustainable and we're all going to have to realize there are more job cuts coming not only for private workers, but public unions as well. We are in bad shape and we need to support each other and that doesn't mean raising taxes to help public workers. Yes, everyone is important, but we can only afford what we can afford. But, there is disparity between people like yourself, people like me and the others who haven't had the wage cuts yet like we have had. There will no doubt be more strikes coming. Greece is an example of where we are headed if some things aren't done soon.

Mr Benson the uprising in say Greece for example isn't about public employees not taking pay cuts, it is about political greed, and changes to get corrupt leaders out of goverment. I think we need that here as well. These leaders have to be accountable for their actions. They serve one term and receive health benefits and a pension...for serving one term?? Why isn't that being discussed. Maybe we need to riot here, oh wait then we will count on the police to restore order and keep us safe. The very same police officers we are trying to take away from with this issue. Get real. This has nothing to do with issue 2. Once again the politicians are trying to turn the attention elsewhere so they can keep stealing, and it's working.

Mr. Benson, I do thank you for mentioning that "Other districts are even more than that," when you mention how many teachers and administrators make $70K+. As has been stated on numerous posts on many articles on Stowpatch, Stow is among the four lowest of the fourteen Summit County public school districts when it comes to administrative AND instructional cost per pupil.

However, I do not necessarily mention this as a good thing! Having seen the revolving door of administration in some SMFCSD buildings, I believe our administrator pay is too low. I think that by eliminating the Business Manager, Assistant Superintendent, and a HS assistant principal, the savings should have been passed on to our building principals to ensure that we can retain the good ones.

While Echo Hills and Lakeview kept longtime, quality administrators, Kimpton has been unable to retain difference-making principals for over a decade! Part of the problem is that middle schools are naturally stepping stones to high school principal jobs. But I believe the Excellent rating success at Kimpton is happening in spite of this inconsistent administrative leadership.

Like you, I believe such salaries for difference-making educators is appropriate and deserved but hard to sustain in such difficult economic times, so I'm not suggesting a pay raise is in order. I only wish to provide another lens with which to view the administrative costs of SMFCSD.

Shouldn't we be working to make sure that NO ONE pays such exorbitant amounts for the basic right to good health care? Why fight to take away or deny benefits rather than fighting to insure that all have access without experiencing financial hardship? Why believe that there is no money to pay for this when taxes are reduced or eliminated for the wealthy, salary increases are granted for state elected officials and programs that take away rights are added and funded? Why aren't we fighting to make sure that you are not so heavily burdened with medical fees? Always before when rights were fought for by certain groups, the benefits won were extended to all - elimination of child labor, safe working conditions, 40 hour week, vacation and sick days, overtime pay, etc. Why not fight to bring everyone up rather than fight to bring everyone down?

That can't be the norm in the private sector. My father had a position with a well known bank in Cleveland for 45 years and he did not pay into his health care the last 20 years he worked their. He did pay into his pension system and now he collects double what I make and he is retired. So I don't feel your figure is accurate.

Please show proof when you make such statements Sarah... I've yet to read ANYTHING that states that "most" (unless you are using this term to inappropriately) pay 50% of their health benefits. Please check the facts.

Dosa did I read you correctly? Did you say, "WAA, WAAA, WAAAA, You are better educated than me, you took jobs that paid less for security, you made better life choices than me, my bosses made me make concessions so they could make more profit, I want what you have but I don't want to make the sacrifices involved, if I can't have what you EARNED I want them to take yours away!!!! WAAA, WAAA, WAAA"

Dear cleverly named Mr or Ms. Ryality,

I'd be willing to bet I've read it more than you. The most recent time was when I used a pen and a highlighter. To which part are you referring as you describe "reasonable concessions"? Surely not 3317.13 that requires educators to go to a merit pay system, which is laughable in such a field. No? How about 3313.202, in which the language gives no cap for health-benefits contribution?

YOUR money is being spent on the education of your child and your community's children. If a better way can be found to spend it, it certainly can't be under the provisions of an immensely flawed bill.